Power Creeps update


  • SUN

    @crusher48 A quick test with my own ramparts seems to indicate that anything in a rampart is protected against tower attacks.

    Edit: Just tested it with invading creeps trapped in ramparts... the hostile creeps in my ramparts took no damage. As for attacking structures? Yes they do indeed. Feel free to try it yourself 😛



  • Even assuming towers could fire on shields, the shield power would still allow offensive operators to defend themselves when they get in position, at least enough to allow boosted healers to repair the damage sustained for the ticks where the shield drops.

    Though honestly, the problem is that Commanders and Executors will need similar abilities to allow them to engage in rooms with towers, or they won't be useful.



  • @crusher48 Could you show me the link of an offensive operator that has a high enough shield level that it can block more than a single attack from the towers+defenders?

    The shield power has a 20 tick cooldown, likely will only have 5-10k HP, and requires a massive amount of energy to use. It could have some synergy with a dismantler still though, since it will be generating energy at the site, but I still don't think it is sustainable without DISRUPT_TOWER, and especially not with the OPERATE_TOWER existing now

    EDIT - and it cannot move while shielded or it loses the benefit of the shield



  • @artch so I have some questions.

    Can EXTEND_SOURCE and EXTEND_MINERAL be used on the same target before it regenerates? You said the effects don't stack, but I somewhat assumed this wasn't an effect with a duration, so I am not sure it works the same way.

    Can I use OPERATE_EXTENSION on a power spawn to drain it of energy and distribute it to the room's extensions

    I still can't find a use for OPERATE_STORAGE, would there be any chance that it might get changed to work on more than just storage, and scale by a percentage rather than hundreds of thousands?

    Are cooldowns on things like OPERATE_SPAWN per spawn or per power creep?

    Although effects can't stack, can they overlap to prevent downtime?

    Is it possible to create 50 level 1 operators to mass generate ops instead of 2 level 25 creeps to generate much fewer ops?

    Can you permanently disable a spawn by repeatedly using DISRUPT_SPAWN Lv5?

    With OPERATE_LAB lv5 do I generate 11 units per reaction (addition) or 10 units per reaction (multiplication). I assume it is 11, but I thought I would ask.

    Why aren't OPERATE_EXTENSION level amounts all multiples of 200? And all of the values seems at least a bit low, although the 3 range is interesting.


  • Dev Team

    Regarding this discussion of power creeps survivability - are you probably missing the fact that power creeps can be healed by regular creeps? Some T3 healers dedicated to a power creep should be capable of protecting them from towers.



  • @artch Without boosted TOUGH, they would take 900-5000 damage from towers alone depending on how the room was constructed and whether the defender was using OPERATE_TOWER. Add in the fact that they could spawn boosted defenders on the edges of their ramparts, and it could become very difficult to actually get in range to disable the spawns.

    The main point is that it heavily depends on how the room is setup and defended. There are many rooms that I have seen that I could never get within 20 range of any spawn with a creep that didn't have boosted TOUGH or DISRUPT_TOWER running.


  • Dev Team

    @gankdalf

    Can EXTEND_SOURCE and EXTEND_MINERAL be used on the same target before it regenerates?

    Yes.

    Can I use OPERATE_EXTENSION on a power spawn to drain it of energy and distribute it to the room's extensions

    Not decided yet.

    I still can't find a use for OPERATE_STORAGE, would there be any chance that it might get changed to work on more than just storage, and scale by a percentage rather than hundreds of thousands?

    OPERATE_STORAGE is intended to work only on storage, I don't see any reason why it should work with other structures.

    Are cooldowns on things like OPERATE_SPAWN per spawn or per power creep?

    All cooldowns are per power creep.

    Although effects can't stack, can they overlap to prevent downtime?

    Yes, you can renew an active effect with the new one.

    Is it possible to create 50 level 1 operators to mass generate ops instead of 2 level 25 creeps to generate much fewer ops?

    Sure. Although take note that 50 Lvl1 creeps (50 ops production) would cost 100 levels, this is equal to 4 Lvl24 creeps (32 ops production) or 8 Lvl11 creeps (66 ops production).

    Can you permanently disable a spawn by repeatedly using DISRUPT_SPAWN Lv5?

    Currently yes. May be changed.

    With OPERATE_LAB lv5 do I generate 11 units per reaction (addition) or 10 units per reaction (multiplication). I assume it is 11, but I thought I would ask.

    Default production amount is 5 units, so with OPERATE_LAB L5 it will be 15 units.

    Why aren't OPERATE_EXTENSION level amounts all multiples of 200? And all of the values seems at least a bit low, although the 3 range is interesting.

    Multiples of 200 is a valid point, we'll change that. Range 3 means to the source structure, not to the extensions.


  • Dev Team

    @gankdalf said in Power Creeps update:

    The main point is that it heavily depends on how the room is setup and defended. There are many rooms that I have seen that I could never get within 20 range of any spawn with a creep that didn't have boosted TOUGH or DISRUPT_TOWER running.

    So why not to use DISRUPT_TOWER then?



  • @artch Well it would require another high level power creep at the same time, since it requires constant usage of DISRUPT_TOWER combined with a massive amount of ops and an additional healer to keep it alive.

    The original statement was that the useful powers have infinite range. Both of the other two powers almost require the two useful powers to even function, and since they cannot be on the same power creep, it requires two power creeps to actually work.


  • Culture

    @gankdalf there are only a few rooms where a player can cluster all of the towers immediately at the only entrances to the room, so in most cases the damage for that first tick will be lower than those worst case scenarios.



  • @tedivm I didn't mean for the first tick, DISRUPT_TOWER and DISRUPT_TERMINAL are pretty safe to use. DISRUPT_SPAWN could be questionable in some rooms due to 20 range and some towers will most definitely be between you and the spawns, while DISRUPT_SOURCE will very likely require going some place dangerous or inaccessible.

    and regardless of how much damage the tower is doing, the DISRUPT_TOWER user will need a healer beside them.



  • @artch

    OPERATE_STORAGE is intended to work only on storage, I don't see any reason why it should work with other structures.

    Well currently I see no use for this power. The one thing that I have trouble with on capacity is the Container structure. Because of a container's 2k capacity it creates a hard limit on how much a hauler is allowed to carry in a single trip. I have been trying to find an excuse (even if it is wildly inefficient) to use carry or harvest boosts in my harvest code, but the containers keep being a limiting factor. Even if I attempted using two high level power creeps with Lv 5 EXTEND_SOURCE on a single source, it still doesn't make these boosts viable due to container limits. I have to use some other transfer method (like links).



  • I mean, the problem is that if you buff up a storage to have 8 million capacity but the duration of the power expires, the resources just disappear.



  • OPERATE_STORAGE: to get energy sinks/praising rooms back to RCL6 it could be very useful. But of course this is pretty special. Perhaps it would be more useful to allow any "store"-structures (storage, terminal, container) as a target and change it to a percentage effect.

    @Crusher48: I don't think the resources will disappaer. Resources also won't disappear when you downgrade your room (storeCapacity is set to 0). So I bet this will be implemented like this. Resources stay and you can withdraw them, you just can not transfer to it beyond the current limit.



  • @demawi Oh wow, I could actually use that if that's how it works



  • @artch Okay questions round 2

    Will EXTEND_MINERAL reset an existing mineral cooldown and just assume those 100 minerals have always been there, will it delay the cooldown instead? Does it even do anything to the cooldown?

    If it doesn't affect the cooldown, will EXTEND_MINERAL amounts survive through a regeneration. In other words, can I stockpile minerals in an extractor while it is regenerating?

    Will OPERATE_STORAGE drop all excess resources on the ground when it expires?

    Can a power creep use more than one power in the same tick?

    Will there be any type of upper limit to how many times I can EXTEND_SOURCE on the same source before it regenerates? This currently looks like the best defense against DISRUPT_TERMINAL, since it could allow you to generate a large amount of energy locally by using boosted harvesters.

    EDIT - Will we be able to select the order that OPERATE_EXTENSIONS fills extensions?

    EDIT2 - If I see an operator in my room that hasn't used DISRUPT_TERMINAL yet, and I know it will use DISRUPT_TERMINAL on this next tick, will DISRUPT_TERMINAL stop a .send() to my terminal if I send it this tick, or will the DISRUPT_TERMINAL stop it?

    EDIT3 - Do power creeps die to nukes landing in the same room?

    Why is the cooldown on SHIELD so long? I feel like it might be more interesting to use if the cooldown were much shorter, but required even more energy to use. No I definitely have no plans for destroying energy shoveled out by dismantlers 😛


  • SUN

    I'd rather have shield be a shorter cd too. What about having it have a small range? I'd love to be able to use it like a protoss sentry force field (https://imgur.com/r/starcraft/liOHcSr) alt text Anything that gives more battlefield control would be very cool, I think it could make fights much more interesting.

    Ideally, I'd like to see more temporary terrain effects.

    Like giving a location a wall, or making it swamp for a few ticks, or placing a temporary road that decays over 10 ticks. Might be better suited for the Commander class, but I think that neutral room fights (along with arena and other types) could really do with more interesting interaction.


  • Dev Team

    @gankdalf

    Will EXTEND_MINERAL reset an existing mineral cooldown and just assume those 100 minerals have always been there, will it delay the cooldown instead? Does it even do anything to the cooldown?

    It has nothing to do with the cooldown.

    If it doesn't affect the cooldown, will EXTEND_MINERAL amounts survive through a regeneration. In other words, can I stockpile minerals in an extractor while it is regenerating?

    Yes you can.

    Will OPERATE_STORAGE drop all excess resources on the ground when it expires?

    No, of course not.

    Can a power creep use more than one power in the same tick?

    No, PowerCreep.usePower() call will override the previous one.

    Will there be any type of upper limit to how many times I can EXTEND_SOURCE on the same source before it regenerates?

    No limits.

    Will we be able to select the order that OPERATE_EXTENSIONS fills extensions?

    Most probably not, since usePower doesn't accept any additional parameters.

    If I see an operator in my room that hasn't used DISRUPT_TERMINAL yet, and I know it will use DISRUPT_TERMINAL on this next tick, will DISRUPT_TERMINAL stop a .send() to my terminal if I send it this tick, or will the DISRUPT_TERMINAL stop it?

    This is implementation details, not ready to answer yet.

    Do power creeps die to nukes landing in the same room?

    I think so. The only exception might be an Executor with active REINFORCE, but it's too soon to decide.

    Why is the cooldown on SHIELD so long?

    Because we don't want to give a single Operator ability to easily build lines of ramparts.


  • SUN

    @artch Quick thought: What if you had the operator only able to make one rampart at a time on a lower cd. Placing a new one would remove the old one. This allows you to have a great uptime at a higher cost, and makes it a more iconic ability for operators on assaults to be generating defensive bunkers. Although I still think a wall version of it (without the defensive capability like ramaprts) like https://youtu.be/ZA_z6lAomno?t=23s would be a very interesting tool.

    If two operators place a rampart on the same location, or one places it after another, does it stack the health? Increase the duration? Override it? Error?



  • @artch

    Will EXTEND_MINERAL reset an existing mineral cooldown and just assume those 100 minerals have always been there, will it delay the cooldown instead? Does it even do anything to the cooldown?

    It has nothing to do with the cooldown.

    If it doesn't affect the cooldown, will EXTEND_MINERAL amounts survive through a regeneration. In other words, can I stockpile minerals in an extractor while it is regenerating?

    Yes you can.

    That's actually pretty crazy. That is probably one of the most powerful operator powers in the document then. It will require some interesting changes to my mineral mining code, and I am still not 100% sure how I will get my power creep around to all his tasks without burning a ton of CPU, but this power still seems pretty amazing.

    According to an initial estimate, a constantly managed mineral deposit could output just short of double the average amount by a Lv5 EXTEND_MINERAL being used on if off-cooldown. So instead of ~1.04 minerals per tick, it would output ~2.04 minerals per tick.

    Will we be able to select the order that OPERATE_EXTENSIONS fills extensions?

    Most probably not, since usePower doesn't accept any additional parameters.

    I wouldn't mind if it were set on the room. Game.rooms["sim"].extensionFillOrder ... could also move the energy structure usage order there and I wouldn't mind 😛

    Just wanted to say that I am overall fairly pleased with what power creeps look like now. I think the enable power in a room mechanic could still use some work, but besides that I really like the general concept on everything now. I think I have figured out ways to use the operators in combat, and I think that EXTEND_SOURCE and EXTEND_MINERAL are powerful enough to properly defend against DISRUPT_TERMINAL. Super excited.