Power Creeps update
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@artch said in Power Creeps update:
Although, your example of a military skill added to a non-military creep doesn't look like a valid example. All military skills always have non-military alternatives on the same level. Could you give us any such example using a shareable link?
Operator lvl 23 has this problem I think, where you choose between OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION and OBSTRUCT_TOWER
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I found an exploit in the current design as well: the best way to generate ops is with banks of level 1 operators only using the generate_ops power. Using that means that you get 1 op per level rather than 1 op per 5 levels for a normal maxed operator, and if you're running conventional operators along with the reactor operators, those operators can have all 25 levels devoted to using the ops and run off of the reactor creeps generating ops back at the base. Since it is almost required that generate ops be a level 1 power (so that a player can use power creeps to at least some level without relying on the market), this isn't really easy to fix without making op generation be a separate power not part of the main power tree.
EDIT: also, extend source and extend mineral should probably have an ops cost. If the reactor creeps were levelled to level 2, they could also supercharge an energy source in their room while generating ops without impacting their op generation. It would also balance extend source and extend minerals and mitigate any market impact those abilities would have.
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@crusher48 said in Power Creeps update:
I found an exploit in the current design as well: the best way to generate ops is with banks of level 1 operators only using the generate_ops power.
Actually starting a new creep will require an extra power level, so it will be 1 GENERATE_OPS for each 2 power levels. But yeah, it can still be undesireable. I do think the first GENERATE_OPS should be placed further up the "tree". Maybe switch it with the lvl 3-choice.
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While playing around with builds, I see that OPERATE_SPAWN and OPERATE_EXTENSION is at the same level 3 times (3, 15 and 19).
Is this intentional? They have a nice synergy which could give some interesting high-level power creeps.
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@artch Will the level options be randomized for each power creep spawned? Or is this a fixed tree we have to work around.
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@artch I have to pay attention the the entire tree at once if I want to attempt to optimally solve this puzzle (or indeed, to attempt to solve it at all). That is the exact opposite of a streamlined experience.
If I have a level n creep how do I know what skills I can have at what levels without having to stare at that mess for 15 minutes?
I'd know with a pyramid I could have x/y/z skills at n levels in an instant... and I would actually have the pleasure of choosing my exact skill composition right from level one to max; even if such choice was an illusion it feels better and more intuitive to grasp to my small mind.
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@artch I understand all of that.
Except that they're NOT in competition. A player can (And basically must.) do both at once. This multiplies the effect of GCL, not competes with it. If at GCL 15 I can, and I quote: "... are able achieve the same effect as another player with higher GCL, but using less creeps, less rooms and less CPU." That "Player with higher GCL" will be able to do all that times the same factor of increase I got.
Now, if you were also planning to gut GCL and it's accompanying CPU amounts to a far lower level, say a 15 /150 cap, then I could start to understand it. I would even favor a lower GCL limit than that, say 10 / 100.
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Another aspect that would be much easier with a MOBA-style selection is the possibility of adding new skills in the future. If new skills are going to be added now, the whole tree has to be reworked, and it probably breaks most of the builds that are being used.
I don't know if it is planned to add new skills, but I think totally abandoning the idea of new skills is shortsighted.
With a MOBA-style selection the players can just ignore the new skills added, while with the current implementation all PCs will probably have to be respeced.
It would also be much easier to grasp. As Pundemonium is saying, before choosing a skill now I have to consider all the future choices, which makes it a very tedious job. If this had been an RPG where I've had such a skill tree, it would have been fine. But this is a game that nurtures and encourages min/max-ing. Comparing to the WoW talent tree is weird, as that is individual abilities, not levels like we have.
From playing around with the tree, my conclusion is basically that I will make as many lvl 5 or lvl 7 creeps that I can and fill my rooms with them, as the next skills are undesired and it would be better to start another PC to quickly get to desired skills again (even with the create-penalty). Maybe 1-2 max-level PC for special situations in addition.
I would much more have prefered a system with max lvl 20-25, where lvl 2 skills require PC lvl 5, lvl 3 skills => PC lvl 10, lvl 4 skills => PC lvl 15, lvl 5 skills => PC lvl 20 (limits up for debate)
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So, having read most of what has been said about power creeps i have a few questions/comments (some may have been said before, but i feel needs reiterating or rephrasing).
Shards; How will we deal with power creeps in multi shard empires? Assuming, (as is most logical) that if we spawn a PC in one shard then we can't spawn it in another, will there be any way for us to determine this other than tracking ourselves, or will it just return OK when we try to spawn and not spawn?
Levelling; This has been talked about a bit in this forum, but I think there's a different way we need to think about this. The problem as I see it is if I want to create a PC that has lvl 5 in multiple useful, symbiotic, abilities then if there's one level that has both of these abilities then I simply cannot. The worst offender of this is OPERATE_EXTENSION and OPERATE_SPAWN where if I build one to lvl5 the best I can do for the other is lvl2. This levelling system restricts us in ways that prevent the most useful combinations and ways it doesn't prevent will quickly be found and become the most widely used. There are of course multiple ways of fixing this, but since you seem wedded to the current concept the only fix I can see is to add more levels beyond level 25 (for operator) and so if we don't use that ability we wanted at lvl 5 because another ability we wanted was on that level then we get another chance later to grab it.
Oh and while I'm on the topic; the idea that a "choose one of 3 powers per level" makes it a more streamlined experience is to completely misunderstand the player mindset, which is not "what can I do at this level?" but more "How do I get this ability to this level?" and "Is it better to just create another PC?"ops; I second what Knightshade said about the name of this. I could get behind it if each of the PC classes use their own resource (e.g. ops for operator, execs for executor and ... coms? .. for commander), but if it's the same resource for each class, then please consider renaming this, something like "fuel" would be better (though not perfect).
How do opposing effects interact?; If I've got a tower that I've done a lvl5 OPERATE_TOWER on and someone else does a lvl5 OBSTRUCT_TOWER what's the net effect? Is it +50% -50% (additively stacked) i.e. back to normal, or is it multiplicatively stacked i.e. the tower would be 75% of it's normal effectiveness, or does one simply override the other? Same question for spawns.
hostile powers affected by ramparts; I know this has been mentioned and the response was "we're still deciding", but this is an important questioned that needs to be answered sooner rather than later. if OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION, OBSTRUCT_TOWER are blocked by ramparts then we'll be looking at the question "are these too week? can they be made better? Is it possible to balance these up to usefulness?" whereas if ramparts don't block these abilities then the questions will be "are these OP? can they be weakened? Is it possible to balance these down to not be game destroying?". OK, yes I'm exaggerating here, but my point is, it's really pointless to discuss these further until we have an answer to the rampart question.
Balancing; I know this is (as it should be) the last to be done, but I just want of point out some of the worst offenders in terms of balance. GENERATE_OPS; this has been pointed out already that the most effective way to mine ops is a farm of lvl1 PCs just generating. OPERATE_SPAWN; I think levels 2,3,4 of this feel good, but lvl1 is basically useless, and lvl5 is opaf. If we rewrite them as how much they increase spawner capacity you'll see why, as it's a 11/43/100/188/400% increase to spawner capacity, so lvl5 here is almost 40x more powerful than lvl1, obviously the numbers here need a serious rethink. OPERATE_EXTENSION; this has also been mentioned before, but, as is, there's basically no reason to use anything other than (multiple) lvl1 PCs for this, even though the second level is the same cost as a new lvl1. If I rephrase this as the number of times you can run the ability per 3k ticks it comes out as 12/15/20/30/60, so lvl2 gives an additional 3 uses per 3k ticks 1/4 as useful as lvl1 (p.s. I REALLY love this ability, it would just be a shame to have such a clear best way to use it).
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Operator lvl 23 has this problem I think, where you choose between OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION and OBSTRUCT_TOWER
Oops, missed that. Fixed, thanks.
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@crusher48 Now level 3 also has
GENERATE_OPS. So you can either spend 4 levels to make one 3-level creep withGENERATE_OPS L2, or spend 4 levels to make two 1-level creeps withGENERATE_OPS L1.
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While playing around with builds, I see that OPERATE_SPAWN and OPERATE_EXTENSION is at the same level 3 times (3, 15 and 19). Is this intentional? They have a nice synergy which could give some interesting high-level power creeps.
Yes, it is intentional. Synergy can be achieved by leveraging multiple Operators in the same room(s).
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Will the level options be randomized for each power creep spawned? Or is this a fixed tree we have to work around.
Of course this is a fixed tree, this is why the skills planner widget exists.
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+1 for the MOBA leveling system.
I think the offensive abilities has to work even if a structure has been ramparted, else it will be far to easy to counter and essentially make these abilities useless.
How does the OPERATE_TOWER work? Does it reduce the range penalties somehow? Does it increase the max damage? Does it reduce the cost to operate?
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If I have a level n creep how do I know what skills I can have at what levels without having to stare at that mess for 15 minutes?
Being a novice player, you don't have "a level N creep", you have a level 1 creep, then it becomes level 2, level 3, etc. On each level you have to worry only about 3 choices.
Being a veteran player, staring at something in the game for 15 minutes isn't supposed to present any difficulty.
I'd know with a pyramid I could have x/y/z skills at n levels in an instant... and I would actually have the pleasure of choosing my exact skill composition right from level one to max; even if such choice was an illusion it feels better and more intuitive to grasp to my small mind.
I disagree. A "pyramid" also requires to think about all current and future choices, and to solve the entire puzzle at once, since upgrading skills is blocked due to internal conditions available on the next (not active yet) levels. Or perhaps I misunderstand what do you mean by "pyramid". Could you elaborate your system a bit, with an example, or a visual sketch, or something?
I also think that a 3-choices table presents easier UI to scan and comprehend. The idea "you cannot upgrade this skill until you take 3 another skills" might be tricky to visualize.
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A player can (And basically must.) do both at once.
Not really, since processing power into your account requires a lot of energy (50 energy per 1 power resource unit). It's a lot, you have to choose between contributing this energy to your Power Level or to your controllers/GCL.
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@kasami said in Power Creeps update:
I would much more have prefered a system with max lvl 20-25, where lvl 2 skills require PC lvl 5, lvl 3 skills => PC lvl 10, lvl 4 skills => PC lvl 15, lvl 5 skills => PC lvl 20 (limits up for debate)
OK, we'll try to draft some possible builds using this system, and see if it's any better. The downside I see here is that different classes have different max level, so limits and conditions will be different for each class as well.
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Shards; How will we deal with power creeps in multi shard empires? Assuming, (as is most logical) that if we spawn a PC in one shard then we can't spawn it in another, will there be any way for us to determine this other than tracking ourselves, or will it just return OK when we try to spawn and not spawn?
Not decided yet.
The problem as I see it is if I want to create a PC that has lvl 5 in multiple useful, symbiotic, abilities then if there's one level that has both of these abilities then I simply cannot.
But why this is a problem? Such restrictions present a challenge and makes planning more difficult, and more fun. Absolute freedom is just boring.
Oh and while I'm on the topic; the idea that a "choose one of 3 powers per level" makes it a more streamlined experience is to completely misunderstand the player mindset, which is not "what can I do at this level?" but more "How do I get this ability to this level?" and "Is it better to just create another PC?"
The question "How do I get this ability to this level?" isn't easier with the proposed alternative, since you have to plan what other skills you have to take in order to get this ability to this level.
ops; I second what Knightshade said about the name of this. I could get behind it if each of the PC classes use their own resource (e.g. ops for operator, execs for executor and ... coms? .. for commander), but if it's the same resource for each class, then please consider renaming this, something like "fuel" would be better (though not perfect).
It's for Operators only. Commander and Executor won't use resources at all, most probably.
How do opposing effects interact?; If I've got a tower that I've done a lvl5 OPERATE_TOWER on and someone else does a lvl5 OBSTRUCT_TOWER what's the net effect? Is it +50% -50% (additively stacked) i.e. back to normal, or is it multiplicatively stacked i.e. the tower would be 75% of it's normal effectiveness, or does one simply override the other? Same question for spawns.
That's a good question. We'll need to do some math before I can answer.
hostile powers affected by ramparts; I know this has been mentioned and the response was "we're still deciding", but this is an important questioned that needs to be answered sooner rather than later. if OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION, OBSTRUCT_TOWER are blocked by ramparts then we'll be looking at the question "are these too week? can they be made better? Is it possible to balance these up to usefulness?" whereas if ramparts don't block these abilities then the questions will be "are these OP? can they be weakened? Is it possible to balance these down to not be game destroying?". OK, yes I'm exaggerating here, but my point is, it's really pointless to discuss these further until we have an answer to the rampart question.
I think that most probably ramparts won't protect structures from powers, since otherwise they make too little sense.
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How does the OPERATE_TOWER work? Does it reduce the range penalties somehow? Does it increase the max damage? Does it reduce the cost to operate?
It affects damage/heal/repair amount.
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Commander and Executor won't use resources at all, most probably.
That doesn't sound good. If they are free to use, and cannot be permanently destroyed, how do you run someone out of combat resources (currently one of the only ways to kill an end-game player, or otherwise survive their attack).
If someone can just keep sending a giant wave of power creeps every 100k ticks for free ... they probably will.
