Power Creeps update
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@artch I understand all of that.
Except that they're NOT in competition. A player can (And basically must.) do both at once. This multiplies the effect of GCL, not competes with it. If at GCL 15 I can, and I quote: "... are able achieve the same effect as another player with higher GCL, but using less creeps, less rooms and less CPU." That "Player with higher GCL" will be able to do all that times the same factor of increase I got.
Now, if you were also planning to gut GCL and it's accompanying CPU amounts to a far lower level, say a 15 /150 cap, then I could start to understand it. I would even favor a lower GCL limit than that, say 10 / 100.
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Another aspect that would be much easier with a MOBA-style selection is the possibility of adding new skills in the future. If new skills are going to be added now, the whole tree has to be reworked, and it probably breaks most of the builds that are being used.
I don't know if it is planned to add new skills, but I think totally abandoning the idea of new skills is shortsighted.
With a MOBA-style selection the players can just ignore the new skills added, while with the current implementation all PCs will probably have to be respeced.
It would also be much easier to grasp. As Pundemonium is saying, before choosing a skill now I have to consider all the future choices, which makes it a very tedious job. If this had been an RPG where I've had such a skill tree, it would have been fine. But this is a game that nurtures and encourages min/max-ing. Comparing to the WoW talent tree is weird, as that is individual abilities, not levels like we have.
From playing around with the tree, my conclusion is basically that I will make as many lvl 5 or lvl 7 creeps that I can and fill my rooms with them, as the next skills are undesired and it would be better to start another PC to quickly get to desired skills again (even with the create-penalty). Maybe 1-2 max-level PC for special situations in addition.
I would much more have prefered a system with max lvl 20-25, where lvl 2 skills require PC lvl 5, lvl 3 skills => PC lvl 10, lvl 4 skills => PC lvl 15, lvl 5 skills => PC lvl 20 (limits up for debate)
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So, having read most of what has been said about power creeps i have a few questions/comments (some may have been said before, but i feel needs reiterating or rephrasing).
Shards; How will we deal with power creeps in multi shard empires? Assuming, (as is most logical) that if we spawn a PC in one shard then we can't spawn it in another, will there be any way for us to determine this other than tracking ourselves, or will it just return OK when we try to spawn and not spawn?
Levelling; This has been talked about a bit in this forum, but I think there's a different way we need to think about this. The problem as I see it is if I want to create a PC that has lvl 5 in multiple useful, symbiotic, abilities then if there's one level that has both of these abilities then I simply cannot. The worst offender of this is OPERATE_EXTENSION and OPERATE_SPAWN where if I build one to lvl5 the best I can do for the other is lvl2. This levelling system restricts us in ways that prevent the most useful combinations and ways it doesn't prevent will quickly be found and become the most widely used. There are of course multiple ways of fixing this, but since you seem wedded to the current concept the only fix I can see is to add more levels beyond level 25 (for operator) and so if we don't use that ability we wanted at lvl 5 because another ability we wanted was on that level then we get another chance later to grab it.
Oh and while I'm on the topic; the idea that a "choose one of 3 powers per level" makes it a more streamlined experience is to completely misunderstand the player mindset, which is not "what can I do at this level?" but more "How do I get this ability to this level?" and "Is it better to just create another PC?"ops; I second what Knightshade said about the name of this. I could get behind it if each of the PC classes use their own resource (e.g. ops for operator, execs for executor and ... coms? .. for commander), but if it's the same resource for each class, then please consider renaming this, something like "fuel" would be better (though not perfect).
How do opposing effects interact?; If I've got a tower that I've done a lvl5 OPERATE_TOWER on and someone else does a lvl5 OBSTRUCT_TOWER what's the net effect? Is it +50% -50% (additively stacked) i.e. back to normal, or is it multiplicatively stacked i.e. the tower would be 75% of it's normal effectiveness, or does one simply override the other? Same question for spawns.
hostile powers affected by ramparts; I know this has been mentioned and the response was "we're still deciding", but this is an important questioned that needs to be answered sooner rather than later. if OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION, OBSTRUCT_TOWER are blocked by ramparts then we'll be looking at the question "are these too week? can they be made better? Is it possible to balance these up to usefulness?" whereas if ramparts don't block these abilities then the questions will be "are these OP? can they be weakened? Is it possible to balance these down to not be game destroying?". OK, yes I'm exaggerating here, but my point is, it's really pointless to discuss these further until we have an answer to the rampart question.
Balancing; I know this is (as it should be) the last to be done, but I just want of point out some of the worst offenders in terms of balance. GENERATE_OPS; this has been pointed out already that the most effective way to mine ops is a farm of lvl1 PCs just generating. OPERATE_SPAWN; I think levels 2,3,4 of this feel good, but lvl1 is basically useless, and lvl5 is opaf. If we rewrite them as how much they increase spawner capacity you'll see why, as it's a 11/43/100/188/400% increase to spawner capacity, so lvl5 here is almost 40x more powerful than lvl1, obviously the numbers here need a serious rethink. OPERATE_EXTENSION; this has also been mentioned before, but, as is, there's basically no reason to use anything other than (multiple) lvl1 PCs for this, even though the second level is the same cost as a new lvl1. If I rephrase this as the number of times you can run the ability per 3k ticks it comes out as 12/15/20/30/60, so lvl2 gives an additional 3 uses per 3k ticks 1/4 as useful as lvl1 (p.s. I REALLY love this ability, it would just be a shame to have such a clear best way to use it).
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Operator lvl 23 has this problem I think, where you choose between OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION and OBSTRUCT_TOWER
Oops, missed that. Fixed, thanks.
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@crusher48 Now level 3 also has
GENERATE_OPS. So you can either spend 4 levels to make one 3-level creep withGENERATE_OPS L2, or spend 4 levels to make two 1-level creeps withGENERATE_OPS L1.
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While playing around with builds, I see that OPERATE_SPAWN and OPERATE_EXTENSION is at the same level 3 times (3, 15 and 19). Is this intentional? They have a nice synergy which could give some interesting high-level power creeps.
Yes, it is intentional. Synergy can be achieved by leveraging multiple Operators in the same room(s).
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Will the level options be randomized for each power creep spawned? Or is this a fixed tree we have to work around.
Of course this is a fixed tree, this is why the skills planner widget exists.
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+1 for the MOBA leveling system.
I think the offensive abilities has to work even if a structure has been ramparted, else it will be far to easy to counter and essentially make these abilities useless.
How does the OPERATE_TOWER work? Does it reduce the range penalties somehow? Does it increase the max damage? Does it reduce the cost to operate?
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If I have a level n creep how do I know what skills I can have at what levels without having to stare at that mess for 15 minutes?
Being a novice player, you don't have "a level N creep", you have a level 1 creep, then it becomes level 2, level 3, etc. On each level you have to worry only about 3 choices.
Being a veteran player, staring at something in the game for 15 minutes isn't supposed to present any difficulty.
I'd know with a pyramid I could have x/y/z skills at n levels in an instant... and I would actually have the pleasure of choosing my exact skill composition right from level one to max; even if such choice was an illusion it feels better and more intuitive to grasp to my small mind.
I disagree. A "pyramid" also requires to think about all current and future choices, and to solve the entire puzzle at once, since upgrading skills is blocked due to internal conditions available on the next (not active yet) levels. Or perhaps I misunderstand what do you mean by "pyramid". Could you elaborate your system a bit, with an example, or a visual sketch, or something?
I also think that a 3-choices table presents easier UI to scan and comprehend. The idea "you cannot upgrade this skill until you take 3 another skills" might be tricky to visualize.
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A player can (And basically must.) do both at once.
Not really, since processing power into your account requires a lot of energy (50 energy per 1 power resource unit). It's a lot, you have to choose between contributing this energy to your Power Level or to your controllers/GCL.
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@kasami said in Power Creeps update:
I would much more have prefered a system with max lvl 20-25, where lvl 2 skills require PC lvl 5, lvl 3 skills => PC lvl 10, lvl 4 skills => PC lvl 15, lvl 5 skills => PC lvl 20 (limits up for debate)
OK, we'll try to draft some possible builds using this system, and see if it's any better. The downside I see here is that different classes have different max level, so limits and conditions will be different for each class as well.
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Shards; How will we deal with power creeps in multi shard empires? Assuming, (as is most logical) that if we spawn a PC in one shard then we can't spawn it in another, will there be any way for us to determine this other than tracking ourselves, or will it just return OK when we try to spawn and not spawn?
Not decided yet.
The problem as I see it is if I want to create a PC that has lvl 5 in multiple useful, symbiotic, abilities then if there's one level that has both of these abilities then I simply cannot.
But why this is a problem? Such restrictions present a challenge and makes planning more difficult, and more fun. Absolute freedom is just boring.
Oh and while I'm on the topic; the idea that a "choose one of 3 powers per level" makes it a more streamlined experience is to completely misunderstand the player mindset, which is not "what can I do at this level?" but more "How do I get this ability to this level?" and "Is it better to just create another PC?"
The question "How do I get this ability to this level?" isn't easier with the proposed alternative, since you have to plan what other skills you have to take in order to get this ability to this level.
ops; I second what Knightshade said about the name of this. I could get behind it if each of the PC classes use their own resource (e.g. ops for operator, execs for executor and ... coms? .. for commander), but if it's the same resource for each class, then please consider renaming this, something like "fuel" would be better (though not perfect).
It's for Operators only. Commander and Executor won't use resources at all, most probably.
How do opposing effects interact?; If I've got a tower that I've done a lvl5 OPERATE_TOWER on and someone else does a lvl5 OBSTRUCT_TOWER what's the net effect? Is it +50% -50% (additively stacked) i.e. back to normal, or is it multiplicatively stacked i.e. the tower would be 75% of it's normal effectiveness, or does one simply override the other? Same question for spawns.
That's a good question. We'll need to do some math before I can answer.
hostile powers affected by ramparts; I know this has been mentioned and the response was "we're still deciding", but this is an important questioned that needs to be answered sooner rather than later. if OBSTRUCT_SPAWN, DRAIN_EXTENSION, OBSTRUCT_TOWER are blocked by ramparts then we'll be looking at the question "are these too week? can they be made better? Is it possible to balance these up to usefulness?" whereas if ramparts don't block these abilities then the questions will be "are these OP? can they be weakened? Is it possible to balance these down to not be game destroying?". OK, yes I'm exaggerating here, but my point is, it's really pointless to discuss these further until we have an answer to the rampart question.
I think that most probably ramparts won't protect structures from powers, since otherwise they make too little sense.
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How does the OPERATE_TOWER work? Does it reduce the range penalties somehow? Does it increase the max damage? Does it reduce the cost to operate?
It affects damage/heal/repair amount.
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Commander and Executor won't use resources at all, most probably.
That doesn't sound good. If they are free to use, and cannot be permanently destroyed, how do you run someone out of combat resources (currently one of the only ways to kill an end-game player, or otherwise survive their attack).
If someone can just keep sending a giant wave of power creeps every 100k ticks for free ... they probably will.
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@gankdalf As I said, all discussions regarding Commander and Executor will be ignored for now, please refrain from them until Operator is released.
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@artch Are ops an actually "physically" resource in the game or acc bound like market credits?
That doesn't seem to be specified anywhere.Side note:
I really don't like the idea of free to use "skills". All skill activations should spend ops regardless of PC type.
One universal resource called "Operations" is more than enough.
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There seems to be a huge benefit to be gained by creating many low level operators to generate ops or refill extensions, since it only takes 1 level to get either of those, and you can bypass many of the long cooldowns (for operate extensions) by simply using 5 level 1 power creeps instead of 1 level 18 power creep.
So, is there any limitation on how many level 1 power creeps you can have? Is the cooldown for filling extensions per-room or per power creep?
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@gankdalf said in Power Creeps update:
There seems to be a huge benefit to be gained by creating many low level operators to generate ops or refill extensions, since it only takes 1 level to get either of those, and you can bypass many of the long cooldowns (for operate extensions) by simply using 5 level 1 power creeps instead of 1 level 18 power creep.
So, is there any limitation on how many level 1 power creeps you can have? Is the cooldown for filling extensions per-room or per power creep?
5 level 1 power creeps is 10 levels (IIUC it takes one level to create, one for the first skill). 1 level 19 (I think you meant 19?) is 20 levels. So yes, your option is cheaper.
The other option can get (by my count) level 4 extend source, level 3 extend mineral, level 2 shield, level 2 generate ops, level 1 operate tower, level 1 operate labs and level 1 operate spawn.
So yes, I can do half as many rooms this way, but I think the extra skills are also rather useful.
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Okay actually something big about the tree that is probably causing the most issue is that there are basically 2 classes in the Operator. There is the defensive/economy/utility booster and the offensive infiltrator/disruptor. These two are almost completely incompatible.
It's not that they have many duties that they can fulfill and have to split their actions between unique tasks and programming challenges, it's that there are powers that are incompatible and remove a large amount of the choice factor. Because operators that are optimized for any type of economy situation will likely be small and have no offense powers, while combat optimized operators are basically required to have things like disrupt tower and shield and the highest personal level possible.
This simply dilutes the unique choices of both versions. It isn't a 3-per level choice. It is a 0 to 2-per level choice almost every time. You cannot use economy powers in an enemy room and you cannot use offense powers in your own rooms, so unless they are supposed to wonder back and forth between combat and personal economy, having them mixed just seems weird.
Sure there could be some excuse that these creeps need something to do during down-time, but in reality the choices they are given result in having a level 3 extends source, a level 1 operate spawn, and maybe a couple other level 1 powers that may be more efficiently ignored rather than utilized.
example: https://screeps.com/power-planner/?creeps=1_Disruptor_12222222012112111202222021
Breakdown (click to expand)
——————————- Level 1: Only one or two viable offense powers
- Level 2: No viable offense powers
- Level 3: Only one or zero viable offense powers
- Level 4: One viable offense power
- Level 5: No viable offense powers
- Level 6: One viable offense power
- Level 7: Three or two viable offense powers
- Level 8: No viable offense powers
- Level 9: Two viable offense powers
- Level 10: One viable offense power
- Level 11: Three viable offense powers
- Level 12: One viable offense power
- Level 13: One viable offense power
- Level 14: Two viable offense powers
- Level 15: No viable offense powers
- Level 16: One viable offense power
- Level 17: Two viable offense powers
- Level 18: No viable offense powers
- Level 19: One viable offense power
- Level 20: One viable offense power
- Level 21: Two viable offense powers
- Level 22: One viable offense power
- Level 23: Two viable offense powers
- Level 24: Two viable offense powers
- Level 25: No viable offense powers
Without going into balance between powers at all, this means that you only have choices at the following levels: 1, 7, 9, 11, 14, 17, 21, 23, and 24.
For a feature that is supposed to give players a hard choice, it seems counterproductive to only give choices at less than 50% of the levels, especially considering how long it takes to get each level. Leveling a creep up for no benefit with no choice involved is going to feel horrible.
There was some choice in what this creep could do while off-duty, but it turns out that it will just be bouncing between all of the sources in a room, and maybe walking over to operate a tower or spawn in case of emergency.
Now for an economy based creep, they will (as written) most likely just be a ton of level 1 creeps generating ops or filling extensions, since it is obviously more level efficient for ops generators to just have an army of level 1 creeps, however, if you did have a high level economy operator, they would never have to take an offense power, and therefore never want to enter an enemy room, and therefore would just have fewer choices at no benefit.example: https://screeps.com/power-planner/?creeps=0_Booster_11210200100020022001000201
Breakdown (click to expand)
Economy, scouting, and defense powers can be used by the same creep effectively, but they are different, so I will not annotate them differently, since I am not trying to argue that some powers are useless (yet).——————————- Level 1: Two viable powers
- Level 2: Three viable powers
- Level 3: Three viable powers
- Level 4: Two viable powers
- Level 5: Three viable powers
- Level 6: Two viable powers
- Level 7: Two or one viable powers
- Level 8: Three viable powers
- Level 9: One viable power
- Level 10: Two viable powers
- Level 11: Two or one viable powers
- Level 12: Two viable powers
- Level 13: Two viable powers
- Level 14: Two or one viable powers
- Level 15: Three viable powers
- Level 16: Two viable powers
- Level 17: Two or one viable powers
- Level 18: Three viable powers
- Level 19: Two viable powers
- Level 20: Two viable powers
- Level 21: Two or on viable powers
- Level 22: Two viable powers
- Level 23: One viable power
- Level 24: Two viable powers
- Level 25: Three viable powers
Okay so obviously this looks much better than the offense creep, since most of the powers are economy/defense/utility focused and can all be used in your rooms effectively, however, every level with a good choice for the offense creeps has an equally bad choice for the local creeps.
Levels 9, 23, and every level with Shield in it, are pretty poor on power selections for any power creep that isn't wreaking havoc and chaos on your enemies. Sure you could make some excuse where an economy creep could leverage some of these powers to allow it to travel through enemy defended rooms unharmed, shortening it's path, but I cannot see that ever being viable with this selection of powers.
The argument could be made that they are primarily for local use, but can come out of their shells during war time to use the couple of powers they have, but in reality, they will just pick the one choice that is useful in their native environment, and the other "choices" just become dead slots.
I like being forced to choose between a few powers at each level, so that I do not have stationary power creeps are just filling extensions or sources, but if the choice is between "do nothing because you will never be entering an enemy room" and "do something minor because there isn't anything else to pick", it's not a choice either.
My "vote" is currently on the MOBA-like system where you simply have to have a high enough total level to get the next level of powers. It not only simplifies the system greatly, but it means that if you have enough powers for both offense and defense they are capable of living side-by-side in the same class without removing choices. I think the MOBA-like system is easier to work with for a level based system, while the 3 choice system (as-is) works better for perks and powers that only have a single level.
Heroes of the Storm uses the 3 or 4-choice system in a similar way to how you are trying to implement it here, but instead of a linear increase, each choice modifies a power in a unique way that cannot be revisited at later levels, so choosing EXTEND_SOURCE at level 2 would function differently than choosing EXTEND_SOURCE at level 5.
An example of this would be: all operators have most operator powers at level 1, but would have choices like:
(these are all in addition to normal power functionality, some assume that the original power doesn't have the functionality that was stated in the level, even if the original document did)
Level 1:
- GENERATE_OPS generates an extra op if this creep standing near 3 other creeps
- OPERATE_EXTENSION has room-wide range
- DRAIN_EXTENSION prevents effected extension from being refilled for 2 ticks
Level 2:
- OPERATE_OBSERVER you keep visibility of an observed room for an extra tick
- OPERATE_TOWER effected towers use half the normal energy cost to fire
- EXTEND_SOURCE regeneration rate of the source is also set to 150 when extended until it regenerates
Level 3:
- OPERATE_SPAWN: creeps spawned during effect time are given 4 free weightless TOUGH parts. these can exceed the parts cap
- OPERATE_EXTENSION: stores an extra 50 energy in all affected extensions. This can exceed the capacity of an extension until it is removed.
- GENERATE_OPS generates an extra op if this creep is standing on a swamp
(these choices combine, so having GENERATE_OPS at level 1 and 3 would mean it is possible to generate 3 ops a use if the power creep uses it on a swamp near 3 other creeps)
Obviously this requires a lot more thought and likely work, but it would fit the leveling system better IMO
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@tigga Yeah I agree that several of the powers are likely worth it. It just seems strange that the level 1 powers can be abused in this way. Seems counter-intuitive.
