Room signs failing to prevent novice zones from appearing
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@devs:
It's not an easy choice (for devs) to decide, if they should favor veteran players' interests, or new players' , when creating novice areas. Still, this case is clearly handled by what Artem say ('sign a room prevents it from noobilizing').
The current situation (with a set of signed rooms being noobilized) is an evident act of ignoring game rules. It may be evaluated as disrespect to the veterans, that reduces game interest sugnificaltly.
This issue can be successfully resolved by devs in 2 ways:
1) respect the current game rules
2) update the rules of rooms being noobilized
Both solutions require the novice area in subject being removed, IMO.
I would like our community to praise mutual respect values and I think this situation can be a good step toward it.
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That's not a very helpful response at all...
And the rooms clearly say "Signed - 3 days ago"
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So after waiting two days for a nonsense response the admins have apparently washed their hands of this. I'm very disappointed that they're refusing to engage the community over this.
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> I’m planning on moving in there this weekend!
tedivm, there are 23 more free rooms signed by you recently that are still remaining in non-novice zones. How exactly do you plan to claim these 23 rooms on this weekend? For example, do you plan to claim the entire area around E38N32 in the next week?
Please understand, signing is just a notice for us, not a restriction. If you want to have some guarantees, please reserve.
If some player or alliance signs the entire map with a message “I’m planning to take over this world very soon” (and it’s technically doable), it won’t stop us from creating novice areas in the game entirely. Your intentions should be not only clear, but also realistic.
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Show me where in the documentation it says that, Sergey.
Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't.
Also, if you had asked me I would have told you.
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Where is Artem?
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Also, if you look at the map, you'll see the novice zone blocks me from accessing the other side of that sector. I can't even access those rooms you claim I can now.
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This is an interesting topic and I'm sorry that I can't participate in this discussion right now - it's Sunday now after all.
However, one thing I'd like to say is that there is still no documentation regarding signing and novice areas. And there is a reason of this - the rules that would formally explain how signing affects novice areas opening do not exist. And I don't think they will ever exist. Signing is a mechanic to simply tell something to other players and also to game administrators, but the only rule which really restricts us is reserving, not signing. You provide the info, we use the info in our considerations. But these considerations include many factors, not only what you tell us. In other words, you cannot just tell "do not open any novice areas around me ever", we won't obey
You recommend us not to do that, and we promise to read your sign messages, but the decision is up to us. As Sergey said, if you want to have guarantees - reserve.
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Alright then, I'm done. Fuck this game and fuck the people running it.
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How can you claim there's no documentation for this when we screenshotted the documentation for this? Seriously, read this thread!
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I hope you have a plan of moderating Slack without my help, because I am done with helping you build this community. I am done being an admin on your network, I'm done hosting the league website, and I'm done contributing any more third party code or modules. If the admins don't respect the players than there's no point in playing this game or contributing to the community.
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How can you claim there’s no documentation for this when we screenshotted the documentation for this? Seriously, read this thread!
By documentation I mean knowledge base articles, not just posts with ongoing discussions on the PTR forum.
I can understand your frustration. I just want to ask you to try to put yourself on our place. This topic is way more complicated than you describe, it involves more than just your interests. And please notice that you do have an area to expand - you even don’t have enough GCL to claim all free rooms around you. I still wonder what is your answer to these Sergey’s questions:
tedivm, there are 23 more free rooms signed by you recently that are still remaining in non-novice zones. How exactly do you plan to claim these 23 rooms on this weekend? For example, do you plan to claim the entire area around E38N32 in the next week?
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I was planning on expanding to the rooms on the right of section E45N35 now that Wurmus has timed out. I was evacuating other rooms storage so I can drop claims, and I built the room in E39N37 specifically so I could have a room which could spawn claimers. My plan was to start claiming rooms there today.
This "we only said it in the forums but never updated the docs" excuse is not a good one. We took you at your word. Read the other veterans in this thread- they all believed this mechanic worked a certain way. If you're refusing to document these things so you can arbitrarily change them then you better expect a lot more frustration from people.
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At first I thought that Tedivm was overreacting a little, but then I saw that the timer is for more than two weeks! This is a pretty severe upset to be hand delivered to a single player, especially one who has been as sharing as Tedivm.
I think it's important we think about what the state of the community is. We have a couple dozen very dedicated individuals who are spending their time and money in not just _playing_ the game, but making it better for others. It's a sandbox game - that's what happens under ideal circumstances.
Even if this novice zone was good for the newbies - which I would like to contest, too - it wouldn't be right for the community as a whole. What this sort of aggressive zoning does is that it creates a rift between the devs and the community. With the new Power Creeps update coming up, this is something I would certainly wish to avoid.
It may feel wrong to put the plans of the senior ahead of the needs of the junior, and I get that. But we need to realise that the junior are actively benefitting from the services provided by the senior members, like the League of Automated Nations that allows them to see where they are spawning and determine whom not to piss off. It's like trickle down economics, except that it actually works.
Furthermore, and quite importantly, what do you think those people spawning there are getting out of this? By putting up novice areas next to people who you *know* are going to steamroll them a couple weeks later, you are giving them a false sense of security. I'm not saying life on the edges is easy, but it's considerably safer in the long term than spawning in a high value area that is on someone's "to colonise" list.
And if you are going to say that those central newbie zones are for more experiences players to gain a foothold in the centre... well frankly, then you're just throwing away the argument about helping the noobs.
If you are facing an influx of new people, it would be better to either open up in the genuinely desolate regions (if there are any) or just open up a new set of Sectors on the edges. These new sectors will be welcomed by noobs and emerging players alike. Most importantly, *nobody* will be pissed of - something that surely helps maintain Dev-Player relations.
To conclude this little essay of mine: I propose the newbie zone be lifted (or at least reduced in lifespan) and there to be a change of policy when it comes to opening up these newbie zones next to experienced players. They upset the veterans, invite newbies to locations they cannot survive in, and the benefit they provide could easily be replaced with a simple opening of a new sector or two.
I hope you will take these words into account as you continue to work to make Screeps a better experience for everyone.
Best regards,
DoctorPC.
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The thing is that we tried to formalize these rules at some point to add to the documentation (as I promised in that PTR forum post), but failed eventually. Signing is a mechanic with very low cost - one creep can sign dozens of rooms during its lifetime. Using portals, an alliance can sign the entire world map. It is why no rules exist yet. We simply couldn't manage to come up with any reasonable rules regarding this. Forum posts were just a discussion of these potential rules, but they have not appeared after all.
And since Sergey was strictly following the rules, he decided to make this area novice, since he considered your displayed intentions a bit non-realistic. If he had given any clear instructions of avoiding any signed rooms (written in the documentation articles, he doesn't follow all PTR forum threads as I do), the outcoume could be different. But again - rules don't exist yet.
And after all, it's all about waiting for 17 days and killing a bunch of novices, isn't it?
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So despite the fact that a bunch of the veterans are obviously upset about this, and despite the fact that I followed the rules you yourself said repeatedly in the forums, you're going to pick this hill to die on and are going to refuse to be flexible and try to correct this issue at all?
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How about you solve this problem for real instead of basically making the feature worthless? Limit the number of rooms that can be signed or something. As it stands now you basically built a feature that you're promising will never actually work, and you're screwing your players over in the process.
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Hell, I'd even be okay with it costing energy or minerals to sign things (or to keep the signatures active). This current state of affairs is completely unacceptable though.
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> Show me where in the documentation it says that, Sergey.
Let's consider we automate the novice area creating and formalize the documentation of it. Then what additional restriction rules you suggest to add, except:
1. The room is reserved.
2. The room is signed with a message "I'm going to claim this room in a few days."
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"wait 17 days and kill a bunch of novices" - who exactly are you aiming to help here?
I am asking this very sincerely - those novices aren't going to get a great experience, especially those spawning for the first time. They'll have 20 days to get attached to their base and then have it ripped away from them.
"It is why no rules exist yet" and then a few sentences later "And since Sergey was strictly following the rules".
Are you talking about the rules that don't yet exist?
This is getting to a standoff nobody needed this Sunday. Why can't the dev team just admit that this time Sergei made the wrong call, next time he'll do his best to not create contentious newbie zones. Clear out the newbie zones there for now since they aren't actually offering any protection - "wait 17 days and kill a bunch of novices" - and look like a group of devs that are attentive to their community.
