Disrupt_Source cost is extreme for its value
-
I feel the the cost of 100 ops for stalling a source regen for 100 to 500 ticks is far out of line with the cost/value provided by other abilities. I think it could stand to have the cost reduced by at least 50%, maybe 80% to make this worth being a useable option.
It's range is too short to be useable on room assaults for the most part, if the source is in range 3 you can probably kill the miner. At most it's a harass tool that costs ~140 operator levels to get the gen ops to power a single PC using it. It doesn't even counter operate_source, since that generates energy on the source directly rather than requiring respawn timer.
-
@davaned Thank you for your opinion! The current Powers balance is not set in stone.
-
You shouldn't compare it to "other abilities", you should compare it to "other offensive abilities". How does it compare to the other offensive abilities that you may pick instead of this one?
-
I would say that the right balance point would probably be a dedicated max level operator with level 5 of disrupt and op gen should probably be able to sustain itself. If you're using a max level power creep in enemy outpost rooms you're not getting the benefit of a full operator in your own rooms, so seems reasonable to have a self-sufficient but very limited harass operator
-
When I looked at the cost of the offensive abilities pre-launch, all of them had a higher op drain than the maximum a single creep can create, while all or most of the defensive abilities had a lower op drain. Consider the screeps attack/defence balance, and the balance around minerals. Defence is probably a bit easier than attacking. And you can't mine enough minerals to do everything you might want to do with minerals, you have to make tradeoffs.
This design of power creep offensive abilities doesn't seem out of whack with the rest of screeps. You can burst offensive ops, but not run them flat out.
-
@wtfrank My comment to that would be that the Operator class is almost entirely room oriented. It has next to no functionality in unowned rooms, especially enemy mined ones. I'd say that the disrupt source represents a significant opportunity cost for both offense and eco, and it's impact is much less significant as an offense tool. So I don't see a strong case for when you'd like to have that power when using it shuts you off from using the rest of a maxed power creeps abilities.
-
This is the spreadsheet I made ages ago. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TXuMGjLIEJnFyO13UhElMKqaG6OsBvMIjq1nQRDmOwU/edit?usp=sharing
Disrupt source is massively cheaper than disrupt tower, in ops/tick. Even the cheapest offensive power consumes ops 6x as fast as a creep can generate them. None of the offensive powers are self-sustainable. A 5000 range self-sustaining offensive creep might be rather a menace to creep society.
I don't see how disrupt source shuts you off from using the rest of a maxed power creeps' abilities. Could you explain that a bit better?
-
@wtfrank Nice doc! That's some great value calculations. Alright lets look at the numbers:
DISRUPT_SPAWN 2 DISRUPT_TOWER 12 DISRUPT_SOURCE 5 DISRUPT_TERMINAL 1.25
Disrupt source is the second most expensive by a large margin. However, the value add of disrupt source is fairly low. Most of these offensive power are about projecting forward, where you're exerting control over something you normally wouldn't be able to affect. Breaking rooms is difficult, but being able to stop spawning, towers, and support all make it a lot easier. And the best part is that they can affect things deep in the enemy defenses.
Now look at disrupt source. What does it offer? If you're in range 3 of the source, you're almost certainly in range of the creep mining it. Killing that creep does the same effect in a more permanent fashion. Disrupt source isn't letting you project power in a room assault situation, and it's impact is negligible at best unless combined with a disrupt terminal.
So that leaves it mostly useful for harassment. In that case, your max level power creep is in an enemy remote mine.
I don't see how disrupt source shuts you off from using the rest of a maxed power creeps' abilities. Could you explain that a bit better?
To clarify this, I'd ask you: Which other powers can you use when not in an owned room? So in the end you have a max level PC that's not using other abilities when it's power in an enemy remote, and it's effect is the same as killing a few miners. It's underwhelming to say the least.
A maxed level operator working solely on remote harass seems like it wouldn't be particularly broken to me.
-
@davaned said in Disrupt_Source cost is extreme for its value:
Now look at disrupt source. What does it offer? If you're in range 3 of the source, you're almost certainly in range of the creep mining it. Killing that creep does the same effect in a more permanent fashion. Disrupt source isn't letting you project power in a room assault situation, and it's impact is negligible at best unless combined with a disrupt terminal.
If you have a base layout that encloses the sources, disrupt terminal isn't necessarily very effective at shutting the base down as the internal sources can still feed 15,000 or 30,000 energy into the room per attack squad lifetime. If you can reach the sources with disrupt source then it could be the difference between this base standing and falling.
-
@wtfrank Can you explain more about the base layout that encloses sources but is still reachable by DISRUPT_SOURCE? I double checked and it's definitely range 3, which lines up with a RA creep being able to shoot it. Most bases I know that fully enclose sources are room edge design, but maybe there is some other common one I'm missing?
Edit: Something worth mentioning. Every serious room you attack with have a spawn, towers, and terminal. The number of rooms that have sources enclosed with miners out of range but the source within range 3 would be maybe 5%. That leaves an extremely niche power with low effectiveness and one of the highest costs.
-
If you're building a bunker, one fairly obvious way to site the bunker, room permitting, is so that the bunker is adjacent to the controller or a source, or if you're very lucky the controller and both sources. So that you get max tower coverage protecting those important sites, and so those sites are less harrassable. You wouldn't necessarily have the source inside the bunker, because of how constrained you are for space, but you would have it touching the edge of the bunker ramparts. It's quite possible that the source could be perfectly safely harvested for the entire time that the bunker holds.
-
Also you're considering DISRUPT source where you find 5 sources to disrupt, on cooldown, and you're claiming that disrupt source would drain 5 ops/tick.
It would certainly be possible to use it like that and spend it's whole time moving to the next source to hit the disrupt cooldown, but in what I consider a realistic usage scenario, in the next column, you're draining 2 ops/tick and keep 2 sources in a base room on lockdown.
So the realistic comparison is 1 or 2 ops/tick vs 1.25 ops/tick for disrupt terminal. It's in the same ballpark. It could be a little cheaper maybe, or disrupt terminal could be a bit more expensive, but asking for for disrupt source to be reduced by 80% of the cost would put the ability ridiculously far out of whack on a cost/benefit ratio.
-
It's still an extremely niche power. You'd maybe get value from it against a single source sometimes in some rooms. I think it's ok for it to be lower priced given that it doesn't represent the same raw power as the other offensive options.
The only reason I can see for it being so expensive is that it is the easiest to quietly break people's code with vs room assault ones, and they were worried about on-release balance where zombie-ish players have their remotes turned off and they die. But otherwise it's definitely underwhelming in my opinion, but that's without using it due to seeing it as non-viable. Have you been using it effectively or leveled any creeps with it?